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[Closed] The 2009 Hot Stove League: Making us Phillie Proof in 2010
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CommentAuthorMike Scioscias tragic illness
- CommentTimeFeb 14th 2010
Sarah Morris' latest article contains these gems:
I can see by July that unless Ramirez turns into the hitter similar to what he was in 2008 when he joined the Dodgers, that he will become a pinch-hitter.
and
The Dodgers lost a possible leadoff hitter when they traded Juan Pierre.
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Obtaining Giles could be a huge boost for the Dodgers. None of the people who follow the Dodgers seriously are comfortable with either Jason Repko or Xavier Paul as reserve outfielders. If Giles is healthy, he can provide the Dodgers with an experienced reserve outfielder and leadoff hitter.
Unbelievable. I'm well aware of her situation, but how are the Dodgers allowing this kind of dreck on the official site?
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness - the blog! For Dodger analysis, reviews, and hilarity. -
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Mike Scioscias tragic illness:
Sarah Morris' latest article contains these gems:
I can see by July that unless Ramirez turns into the hitter similar to what he was in 2008 when he joined the Dodgers, that he will become a pinch-hitter.
and
The Dodgers lost a possible leadoff hitter when they traded Juan Pierre.
and
Obtaining Giles could be a huge boost for the Dodgers. None of the people who follow the Dodgers seriously are comfortable with either Jason Repko or Xavier Paul as reserve outfielders. If Giles is healthy, he can provide the Dodgers with an experienced reserve outfielder and leadoff hitter.
Unbelievable. I'm well aware of her situation, but how are the Dodgers allowing this kind of dreck on the official site?
Yeah, as much sympathy as I have for Sarah's plight, I cannot agree with anything there. However, there are a lot of casual Dodger fans who think JP was awesome during his stay with the Dodgers.
Alluding to some previous posts, JP would have been a key contributor on teams back in the 1960's. Dodgers champioonship teams in that era were scrambling to score 600 runs in 162 games, compared to pushing 800 in the current era. Like Wills, Pierre's style of play is more in line with the scratch across a run style played in the '60's. It does not translate well to the (post?) steroid era.
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CommentAuthorthe ditchdigger
- CommentTimeFeb 14th 2010
ok pardon my ignorance. what, exactly is Sarah's "situation?" i find her excerpts laugh inducing. as a bolt of lightning strikes me
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the ditchdigger:
ok pardon my ignorance. what, exactly is Sarah's "situation?" i find her excerpts laugh inducing. as a bolt of lightning strikes me
I believe, if memory serves me right, she has cerebral palsy.
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness - the blog! For Dodger analysis, reviews, and hilarity. -
bigblaster:
Why not?
I refuse to get into numbers debates with statisticians. We've beaten the "baseball is more than numbers" argument into the ground. Impact can't always be quantified and that's the problem: Some of the snot-nosed sportswriters voting on the HOF never saw some guys on the ballot play, and therefore go strictly by numbers (even comparison numbers for players in the same era don't always tell the story). I call it the "Oh, SHIT" factor: Which players cause opposing managers or pitchers (or batters) to say that when they lose them on base or see them walking up to the plate or to the mound. Wills was a guy who would shake opposing pitchers up, just by standing on base. I don't know if you can quantify head games, but Wills played them like a Stradivarius. Alston, too (which is why he is in the HOF and deservedly so).
I can see where you're coming from, Greg, but, on the other hand, for every "snot nosed statistician," there's also the condescending Grandpa from years past (hello, Murray Chass) who dismisses stats altogether and only goes by memory and what he saw. That's why sometimes NOT being there can sometimes provide more objectivity, because you're not wrapped up in the emotion with the rose colored glasses or letting one's emotions/memories take affect, as they hark back to the chants of "Go! Go! Go! Go! Go!" I'm not saying any of this is you, by the way, but the point being is that there's another, possibly worse, extremity to it as well.
Ironically, that's my problem with the Wills argument: there's not enough statistical analysis from the pro-HOF crowd with Wills. A bit of it has resorted to saying repetitive platitudes and promoting a myth rather than giving solid objective evidence towards his HOF candidacy. I mean, he very well may have revolutionized the game by bringing back the stolen base (although you'd think he revolutionized the game the way Ruth did with HR's, from what some say), but I think that's a bit overstated because 1. Alston deserves a great deal of credit for seeing this and utilizing that weapon to begin with, 2. the SB movement was already starting to come back by the late 1950's, 3. the actual total SB's around MLB actually declined by nearly 200 after 1962 until 1965 and 3. whatever revolutionary Wills might have been with the SB, other than 1962 and a few other years, he wasn't THAT good of a base runner, having many years where his stolen base percentage just wasn't acceptable. I'm not saying he was terrible, keep in mind, but if speed is supposed to be his ticket to the HOF, then many of those years just do not cut it.
For me personally, I'm not expecting people to show me that Wills was Rickey Henderson or something, but if he's supposed to be Hall of Fame worthy, can we at least show that he was in the league of Lou Brock, also a speedster of that era? Because I get why Brock's in the HOF and I certainly wasn't there. With Wills, I just don't see it. I acknowledge he played a vital role in the Dodgers' run in the 1960's, but to go from valuable contributor to HOF'er... I just think it needs a bit more qualification than what I've seen.
bigblaster:
Garvey was not only tremendous at digging out errant throws (mostly by Russell), which shored up the defense in that infield, he was a guy who was the 2nd most feared hitter on the Dodger lineup (after Reggie Smith) for 9 years. I don't think there were too many pitchers who said "Oh, good, get me to Garvey, let me get him and I'll worry about Cey, later." One can argue the popularity vote on All-Star ballots, but a 10-time all-star, former NL MVP, two-time All-Star MVP, two-time NLCS MVP (who hit 4-HR in the 78 NLCS), multiple gold glover AND the leader of a team that won the NLCS 4 times and a WS DOESN'T get consideration for HoF? Really?
I do agree with the general point that Garvey doesn't get enough respect in terms of his overall career, and probably should have gotten more attention than he did, though this article is kind of where I'm at with the whole thing and sums it up well:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/steve-garvey-gets-no-respect/
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness - the blog! For Dodger analysis, reviews, and hilarity. -
Matthew, how is the popcorn?
Brock and Henderson were outfielders, primarily left fielders, so it's apples and oranges.
Compare some of the second basemen and shortstops of his era. Nellie Fox, Bill Mazeroski, Phil Rizutto. Go back to such inductees as Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, Johnny Evers, Joe Tinkers, Dave Bancroft, and Joe Sewell. I saw the first three play, and I can tell you that Wills is not only statistically superior, but had a much larger impact on the game. The others were before my time, so I can only judge them by their numbers, and Wills is a much better candidate.
Wills got blackballed because:
He dated white movie stars (Doris Day among others) during a time when that was frowned upon. This was prior to the civil rights movement...the days of "back of the bus", "colored rest rooms", and segregated schools.
He developed a cocaine habit in later years and by his own admission blew through upwards of a million dollars in one year.
His managerial career was short and a failure.
He wrote a book detailing all the sordid affairs and drug problems and issues with his son, Bump.Maury is clean and sober now.
Admittedly, my viewpoint is skewed by the fact that I idolized him growing up and that I actually got to know him when I lived in Vero Beach. He is an unbelievably great human being. Yeah, I know being a good guy doesn't get you in the hall of fame, but the perception otherwise sure can keep you out.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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the ditchdigger:
ok pardon my ignorance. what, exactly is Sarah's "situation?" i find her excerpts laugh inducing. as a bolt of lightning strikes me
She is so severely physcially handicapped that it takes her hours to type out a paragraph. She apparently has no motor control of her hands. In probably the best piece he ever wrote, Bill Plaschke devoted a column to her, her love of the Dodgers, and the handicaps she deals with every day. If you can read that column and not get a little sentimental, you need a "heart" transplant.
Her writing reflects the feelings of a lot of Dodger fans. She is about as objective as I am about Maury Wills (see previous post) and is a "loyal, dedicated, and rabid Dodger fan" who has a forum. I don't agree with all she writes, but I appreciate it as her honest viewpoint, and respect the effort it takes to physically accomplish it.
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CommentAuthorGenericFan
- CommentTimeFeb 15th 2010 edited
bigblaster:
Wills was a guy who would shake opposing pitchers up, just by standing on base. I don't know if you can quantify head games, but Wills played them like a Stradivarius.
It's pretty easy to quantify. Did his "head games" help him steal bases at a higher percentage, or create more runs for his team than the average leadoff hitter? I'm not seeing where they really did. He didn't score a higher percentage of runs (vs. times-on-base) than Bill Virdon or Eddie Kasko. And he was wayyy behind guys like Lou Brock and Curt Flood. And that was 1962, his best season.
Regarding Garvey, you said it yourself, he wasn't even the most feared hitter on his own team. I'm not claiming he was *bad* or anything. He was an excellent player, both offensively and defensively, but he wasn't dominant the way a Hall of Famer should be. He wasn't Schmidt or Stargell. He wasn't even Foster or Parker. He was solid and dependable. He was a guy who showed up for all 162 games and would hit .300 with a few homeruns. But he never slugged .500 and he never drew walks. I won't say he hit an "empty" .300, but it certainly wasn't an overly productive .300 either -- especially not for a first baseman.
You're looking at things through your groovy 1970's goggles where time has smoothed out the rough edges. If Garvey was playing today he probably wouldn't be so revered in today's game threads.
Double Plays Grounded Into
1975 NL 19 (4th)
1976 NL 20 (4th)
1978 NL 17 (7th)
1979 NL 25 (1st)
1980 NL 17 (5th)
1983 NL 16 (8th)
1984 NL 25 (1st)
1985 NL 25 (2nd)
1986 NL 18 (6th)
Career 251 (25th)I'm not saying that, alone, should keep him out of the Hall. I'm merely pointing out that sometimes our judgement is clouded by personal feelings to the extent that we block out bad things while remembering only the good.
Instead of "The Human Vaccuum Cleaner", today's nickname would probably be "The Human Rally Killer". I look at the above stats and I see a lot of kicked cats in the Torgy household.
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CommentAuthorItTakesFaith
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
I'd like to suggest a compromise on the Steve Garvey HOF worthiness debate: Since we obviously can't come to a consensus on Garvey as a player (or even Garvey as a man!)... can we at least agree that - without a doubt - the man's FOREARMS deserve induction into the HOF...?!
Michael Mahler -
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CommentAuthorbigblaster
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
ItTakesFaith:
I'd like to suggest a compromise on the Steve Garvey HOF worthiness debate: Since we obviously can't come to a consensus on Garvey as a player (or even Garvey as a man!)... can we at least agree that - without a doubt - the man's FOREARMS deserve induction into the HOF...?!
You mean they aren't already?
I'd ask the obvious question: Who would win a fight between Garv's forearms and Thirsty's beard, but Thirsty shaved his beard off, so until he grows it back (or does the beard actually grow Thirsty? Hmmmm) we'll have to table that one.
The Easternmost in Quality...the Westernmost in Flavor!! -
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Garvey was a lot like Eric Karros, only better in the clutch and not as slow/immobile. Garvey probably would have had a great future in politics if not for the philandering and resultant father of our country reputation. Still, if I could get that picture of him in that SD Putrid uniform out of my head, I could muster up sympathy for his hall induction.
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CommentAuthorbigblaster
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010 edited
The key quote (in case it gets pushed down the blog, later):
"Kuroda could be a key to the rotation and the club was concerned when word came from Japan that he still had neck pain associated with a bulging disk, presumably a side effect of the liner off his head. But Kuroda said aggressive acupuncture treatment provided relief and he's been throwing for more than a month."
The Easternmost in Quality...the Westernmost in Flavor!! -
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I have a feeling that our rotation is going to have more twists than a season of 24. Come to think of it, we may go through 24 starting pitchers before October.
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
Heyman says we are in on the Goon along with the Rox to see if he has anything left. I seriously doubt he has much left, but seeing as how Ned is bringing in a cast of thousands to spring training, why the Hell not?
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
Mike Scioscias tragic illness:
Sarah Morris' latest article contains these gems:
I can see by July that unless Ramirez turns into the hitter similar to what he was in 2008 when he joined the Dodgers, that he will become a pinch-hitter.
and
The Dodgers lost a possible leadoff hitter when they traded Juan Pierre.
and
Obtaining Giles could be a huge boost for the Dodgers. None of the people who follow the Dodgers seriously are comfortable with either Jason Repko or Xavier Paul as reserve outfielders. If Giles is healthy, he can provide the Dodgers with an experienced reserve outfielder and leadoff hitter.
Unbelievable. I'm well aware of her situation, but how are the Dodgers allowing this kind of dreck on the official site?
I finally read this piece and all I can say is, "WTF?" Manny is paid too much to sit the bench and be a pinch hitter. Hell, even with his downturn after the wrist shot, he is still better than the decrepit Brian Giles and the overpaid Slap. What I can't believe is that she is so down on Xavier Paul. The guy is everything that Slap isn't. He can hit with power, he is a stronger defensive outfielder and his left arm is probably stronger than Slap's. Plus, Ned didn't get to negotiate his contract, thereby he doesn't cost the team tons of payroll.
Brian Giles? Please! The guy is a prime example of better living through Chemistry and even though that doesn't bother me much, he is also fond of slapping around women - and that does. He should be the kind of person the Dodgers pass on.
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
GenericFan:
It's pretty easy to quantify. Did his "head games" help him steal bases at a higher percentage, or create more runs for his team than the average leadoff hitter? I'm not seeing where they really did. He didn't score a higher percentage of runs (vs. times-on-base) than Bill Virdon or Eddie Kasko. And he was wayyy behind guys like Lou Brock and Curt Flood. And that was 1962, his best season.
Regarding Garvey, you said it yourself, he wasn't even the most feared hitter on his own team. I'm not claiming he was *bad* or anything. He was an excellent player, both offensively and defensively, but he wasn't dominant the way a Hall of Famer should be. He wasn't Schmidt or Stargell. He wasn't even Foster or Parker. He was solid and dependable. He was a guy who showed up for all 162 games and would hit .300 with a few homeruns. But he never slugged .500 and he never drew walks. I won't say he hit an "empty" .300, but it certainly wasn't an overly productive .300 either -- especially not for a first baseman.
You're looking at things through your groovy 1970's goggles where time has smoothed out the rough edges. If Garvey was playing today he probably wouldn't be so revered in today's game threads.
Double Plays Grounded Into
1975 NL 19 (4th)
1976 NL 20 (4th)
1978 NL 17 (7th)
1979 NL 25 (1st)
1980 NL 17 (5th)
1983 NL 16 (8th)
1984 NL 25 (1st)
1985 NL 25 (2nd)
1986 NL 18 (6th)
Career 251 (25th)I'm not saying that, alone, should keep him out of the Hall. I'm merely pointing out that sometimes our judgement is clouded by personal feelings to the extent that we block out bad things while remembering only the good.
Instead of "The Human Vaccuum Cleaner", today's nickname would probably be "The Human Rally Killer". I look at the above stats and I see a lot of kicked cats in the Torgy household.
Hey, DS. Good to see you about. Haven't kicked a cat in a long while - beast is getting smarter. He hides out during sporting events. I could kick the boy but he would likely kick back.
I have to agree on Garvey. Yeah, he was an important piece of those teams in the seventies, but he is hugely overrated. I always thought that Cey, Lopes and even Doofy were more valuable on those teams. Right now, I am praying Russell gets his head on straight or I may have to invest in a varmint to boot around here.
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorBluePastorKyle
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
SamAdams:
I have a feeling that our rotation is going to have more twists than a season of 24. Come to think of it, we may go through 24 starting pitchers before October.
As long as they don't change by the hour.
- Kyle... CrossRoads Church -
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CommentAuthorNewportDevil
- CommentTimeFeb 16th 2010
It is so hard to excited about this team this year. You look at it on paper compared to the others who are technically the leaders and it just looks a lot worse. Our pitching staff is really comical right now. Philadelphia has to be laughing at their 1-2 compred to ours. If San Francisco gets any offense at all, they could be a factor as well. The Dodgers could end up with a rude awakening this year as a result of their inactivity.
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
Kissyface has more news on the Goon. Colletti had Logan White watch him throw and now said the ball is in Boras and the Goon's court. The Rox' people felt that Gagne is in great shape and they are also interested. If Gagne has something left, he would be a nice set up guy for Eggplant.
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorMike Scioscias tragic illness
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
grabarkewitz:
Kissyface has more news on the Goon. Colletti had Logan White watch him throw and now said the ball is in Boras and the Goon's court. The Rox' people felt that Gagne is in great shape and they are also interested. If Gagne has something left, he would be a nice set up guy for Eggplant.
What would really be interesting is that between Sherrill, Belisario, Troncoso, and Kuo, the pen is full of set-up guys. So if Gagne made the team, he's probably the #6 reliever at BEST. Can you imagine a guy who used to own the town like that being playing the "2009 Guillermo Mota Memorial Last Man Out of the Pen" role?
Either way, I think the pen is too crowded as it is. The Dodgers are likely to carry 7 relievers, so only 2 spots after the big 5. I have to think that Weaver and at least one - if not TWO - of the guys who don't win #5 starter have a good shot to get those, and that doesn't even include the tons of other fungible guys around.
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness - the blog! For Dodger analysis, reviews, and hilarity. -
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I say pass on the Goon.
www.shmolnick.com -
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
NewportDevil:
It is so hard to excited about this team this year. You look at it on paper compared to the others who are technically the leaders and it just looks a lot worse. Our pitching staff is really comical right now. Philadelphia has to be laughing at their 1-2 compred to ours. If San Francisco gets any offense at all, they could be a factor as well. The Dodgers could end up with a rude awakening this year as a result of their inactivity.
I don't know what the Phillies are laughing about. After Halladay and Hamels, I am not impressed by their starters. Blanton, Happ and Moyer are not that special and their pen is pretty unimpressive. Add to that, their farm system is pretty empty and if Rollins, Ruiz or Howard go down, they have nothing to replace them with. I think that any team who thinks our pitching is comical is not paying attention. Kershaw will be an ace, Billz has proven he can be acelike and if Kuroda is healthy, we have a top three who can compete with any other top three in the NL. As far as bullpens go, none are better than ours. Plus, we have young arms on the farm who are close to ready if we have an injury. Our biggest worry is up the middle. Can Martin channel 2007? Is Furcal 100%? Who is going to play second?
To be honest, the Giants still have the same problem they had last year - they can't get guys on base. Every player they signed is a hacker. DeRosa, Huff, Uribe along with Rowand, Renteria, Sanchez and Molina wouldn't know a good at bat if it bit them on the arse. I am not really worried about our division. The Snakes don't have a real pen, and they like to hack like the Giants. The Rox have Tracy - he will screw the pooch as sure as the sun comes up in the East. The Padres are likely three to four years away from being a contender. I am more worried about next year when we have to replace Manny, Kuroda and will have to pay Kershaw and Billingsley (as I expect both to have big seasons).
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorgrabarkewitz
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
Mike Scioscias tragic illness:
What would really be interesting is that between Sherrill, Belisario, Troncoso, and Kuo, the pen is full of set-up guys. So if Gagne made the team, he's probably the #6 reliever at BEST. Can you imagine a guy who used to own the town like that being playing the "2009 Guillermo Mota Memorial Last Man Out of the Pen" role?
Either way, I think the pen is too crowded as it is. The Dodgers are likely to carry 7 relievers, so only 2 spots after the big 5. I have to think that Weaver and at least one - if not TWO - of the guys who don't win #5 starter have a good shot to get those, and that doesn't even include the tons of other fungible guys around.
I have to agree. Even if Gagne is back to being the Goon, how many innings can he really get? At least Weaver can spot start and I have to think that McDonald gets the number 12 spot in the pen as I would be better with Elbert getting innings on the farm if Haeger wins the number five (which I think is the best move). I am just nervous that Torre and Colletti will fall in love with Ramon Ortiz or one of the other NR pitchers, thereby losing a guy like Haeger.
I'll play the radio on Southern stations because Southern Belles are Hell at night... -
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CommentAuthorazulfan4life
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
My thing with the Goon coming back and him Being 1/4 of the pitcher he once was is that it might open up the door to trade Sherill or any other middle reliever for maybe a starting pitcher..
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CommentAuthorloneymiller
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
azulfan4life:
My thing with the Goon coming back and him Being 1/4 of the pitcher he once was is that it might open up the door to trade Sherill or any other middle reliever for maybe a starting pitcher..
Maybe we can trade Sherril and Blake and get Josh Bell back from the Orioles? Or send the same package back to the Indians for Santana.
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CommentAuthorthe ditchdigger
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
maybe we take a risk on a guy that has a huge upside with low cost. that could be a studly 4th or 5th pitcher. you know, some guy who would bring in a big Taiwanese following? a guy that maybe we just give him 2 million with potential for more. a guy who perhaps used to pitch under our skipper in the past. wait . . . . the Nationals already jumped on that one. the damn Nats. really?
keep cranking out those promising contracts like ratface Carroll, Mr. 209 lbs. Belly-ard, the ever famous annoying Giles and potentially the one you call goon, the missing Hanson brother. well done. and somehow Felipe Lopez is still out there begging for a job. -
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CommentAuthorItTakesFaith
- CommentTimeFeb 17th 2010
Speaking of Colletti's unrepentive love of former Gints, has anybody had a "Piss Hands" sighting lately? (A surefire clubhouse morale-killer!)
Michael Mahler -
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CommentAuthorbigblaster
- CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010
The Left Field Pavilion is apparently selling thirsty shirts that look like this:
I say we need to make a bulk order!
The Easternmost in Quality...the Westernmost in Flavor!! -
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CommentAuthorbigblaster
- CommentTimeFeb 18th 2010
Just as another reminder, since pitchers and catchers report to Camelback on Saturday, this thread will be closing tomorrow night. I will be starting up the 2010 Spendodger Memorial for spring training. Therefore, any ongoing conversations and discussions will need to be wrapped up by around 10-11 pm, PST.
The Easternmost in Quality...the Westernmost in Flavor!! -
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bigblaster:
The Left Field Pavilion is apparently selling thirsty shirts that look like this:
I say we need to make a bulk order!
I'm sure LM will want at least 3